The “Bucket of Crabs” is one of our favorite analogies. Pulling crabs out of traps on Kodiak Island, we’d just toss them into a big bucket ā no need to put a lid on the bucket.
Why not?
Because as soon as one crab would start to climb out, the other crabs would drag him, or her, right back down into the bottom of the bucket. There’s no escape to life back in the ocean.
And that keeps happening until all of the crabs end up in the steamer.
The point?
Pick your support group with care. Most so-called alcohol support groups are, in fact, merely a bucket of crabs that will keep dragging you back down to their level. Try and escape and you’ll be warned that it’s too dangerous to get a life, or to mingle with “normies,” or grow up. It’s too dangerous to stop building your life around alcohol.
So you stay in the alcohol bucket, drinking or not, or complaining about your spouse, or parents, or children, orā¦ā¦
And what’s the point of all of this?
Obviously the point is to avoid actually making any real change. That’s what groups like AA and Alanon and Alateen do best, they help you maintain the “security of familiar miseries” – as we termed it 25 years ago ā instead of fixing your life.
But why would you want to trade the illusory security of the crab bucket for an actual life out in the real world?
Remember, despite all of the con men and hucksters, alcohol abuse is a choice and you are free ā not powerless ā to make a different choice at any time. If you’re the spouse, parent, or child of an alcohol abuser, you are also free to make choices, including the choice to get a life of your own. Not a life focused around another’s alcohol abuse.
You can always choose to be recovered, not in crippling, life-denying, “recovery.” You can choose to be an ex-drinker just as many of us are ex-smokers. You can also choose to be someone who used to waste you life on a drinker but got a grip, got over him or her, and got a life of your own.
Please, alcohol abuse is a choice, not a disease, and you can escape the AA/Alanon Bucket of Crabs. Don’t let the doomed continue to drag you back to share their misery and their fate.
I went to an Al-Anon meeting, 4 codependent meetings, and I also supported a friend by going to his AA meetings. I totally believe you have to figure out what is not working and on making a change to do something different. But to sit there and listen to everyone go on and on about their problems, it’s a drainer. If they had a more structured meeting with clinical help to make firm boundaries with people that are there, keeping their sentences short and to-the-point, and problem solving what a better reaction might be, it would be helpful. I seen a lot of people there just want validation for what they’re going through and to be able to discuss it. I would like to see actual problem solving and change.
I have been attending al-non for several months. AA years ago. This description of the crabs in the bucket is not only dead on its dangerous. Iāve been seeing regulars actually getting worse. They look suicidal at times. It helped me at first knowing others were struggling however the organizers in my opinion are lining their pockets. Itās not a lot of money but they sure are like wolves. Checks made out to them personally. And money is the topic for the first 30 minutes. Some people get singled out and reprimanded others (men) who have been regulars are permitted to do and say whatever. I was selected to be talked to like a child for a comment I made about CRAFT another type of support and she went on to say maybe al-non isnāt for me. I was so shocked. She said people who read a lot donāt always work out here. Meaning having an opinion or a brain is not permitted. I highly recommend anyone considering al-non choose the meeting carefully. Get recommendations and seek counseling also. Even reading there are tremendous books on copdepency, addiction, and books on tape.
I am an AA spouse, and mother of addicts. I totally get what you are saying. Does anyone else see a perverted sense of pride that these aa folks have towards others. “Other people are not like us” “We are different.” “Only another alcoholic can understand.” It drives me nuts!
AA has worked for me for 15 years.
Not all Alanon groups are the same. A healthy group will not focus on the problem and we know we have choices. I’ve been a grateful member of Alanon for 6 years. I haven’t experienced what you mention. Nor has some of the things you mention been endorsed. What I do know is I am a better person today because of the 12 steps and the action I had to take from it. Much better. I’m sorry your experience wasn’t that positive. But for me it’s been a life changer. In my marriage with my son, in my job, in all aspects of life.
Al-Anon is making my spouse selfish and treating everyone like they are the alcholic or drug addict; he says to me that his feelings come first, and he demands my 100 percent attention and when I cry I am a cry baby because itās not a mature thing to do, I think my husband needs help and A
AL-ANON IS ONLY MAKING HIS PROBLEMS WORSE; He shows no empathy and puts him first before everyone; even his children and making his sponsor ( his crazy 12 step brother) who has deserted him numerous times in life the only thing that matters. He is 53 and I think he has s
One to his brother 20 years only yet he is now his Al-Anon mentor, He walks around saying he is in recovery but from what….. he isnāt the drug addict or alcholic , He states he isnāt there for them anyhow n it has nothing to do with them itās about him. His recovery ;
, I think he has lost his mind and I know he is loosing his marriage. Itās so sad and I donāt know how to stop him and help him. I am not the enemy. I just wish he would listen to me and together we face the world. I am the one that has been with him for years n when he struggles I want to help not walk away:::: itās helpless. I am fighting a war with him that I cannot win, Iām afraid for him and Fraid for us. Itās so sad n I wish he would realize how much I love him and just want to hold his hand. His heart and help him. Help us. Help me. He thinks I am the enemy n Iām scared when he realjzes Iām not it will be too late. He needs to see that it was his brother that left a long time ago n he is only on your side now cuz itās his craziness he is listening toooooo. I promise him if he turns a inch his brother would be gone. I want to be his best friend. Inside n out. And he just donāt trust me. I have only loved him n been a devoted wife n mother. Everyone thinks he is crazy but Al-Anon and his brother. Itās so sad to watch. Heartbroken in new york
Obvious this article was written by someone who has not lived in the world of alcohol and drug abuse – the ignorance of the article is astounding. Raised in an alcholic environment, married an alcholic, ever single sibling on both sides of the family are alcholics and or drug addicts, daughter is 2 years clean and the only addict one in the family to EVER be clean and sober is by AA, other relatives have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on recovery centers and still no success. Alanon has literally saved my life, for those who the program has not worked it means they are not working the program as it is meant to be worked.
I really despised AA and Alanon. For my daughter, it was a 14 year experiment that failed horrendously. She found a good therapist and psychiatrist, and she went on MAT, which she’s now tapering off of. She has no desire to drink or use. I found Alanon to be harmful. There were people there who’d been attending for 20 years and had gotten nowhere. The stories were depressing and unhelpful. I disliked everyone I met, and I tried a few groups. All the same trash.
I was also singled out and reprimanded in front of the entire group by a regular. I was new to Alanon and the topic was meditation. I thought it would be helpful to suggest an iPhone app that has guided meditation. You would have thought I was trying to sell the app to everyone there!! I was talked down to like a child. Iām 64 years old !!!! and I was just trying to be helpful. I would have appreciated a private suggestion after the meeting, this would have been more respectful and kind which is what Alanon āsaysā it is supposed to be. I think they are mostly victims complaining about their alcohoholics without leadership or someone present that can actually help them heal.
Al-Anon can really be awful, or awe-filled. A lot of negative things as mentioned here. Self-centered people focusing 0n becoming more so. Bit has galore
..controlling, dishonest, people. Great people too. But beware, and read the comm ent of other people here
And what was true in 2010 is still true today. What this article doesn’t mention is that while 12 Step is emotionally damaging for for those that don’t drink that it has a higher rate of death for heroin and other opioid users than continuing to use street heroin and not even attempt to stop.
I think it is useful when those in 12 Step, especially those who with a heroin or other opioid use disorder (Note: I don’t like the term “addict” because it suggests that people can’t change but just as an Al-Anon can actually make it out of he bucket–even if it might be hard–so can those with a substance abuse disorder).
It’s also relevant to point out when people say that 12 Step works for people because people will say that it works for them, but this ignores all the accounts that the group culture is actually damaging and if you analyze how it functions it is clear that it functions exactly as the crabs in the bucket–except, of course, beause we are people and not crabs, we have a chance of getting out.
Went to Alanon.
Apparently, I didn’t say it right – was basically attacked, so, I left.
I’ve been recovering (from all things worldly) for over 25 years.
Adding Alanon to the list.
The book is pretty good — people way to controlling.
They need to bring fly swatters (or paddles) to the meetings.
Thanks
I went to my first alanon meeting this week. I didn’t see how reading a list of steps/principles over and over helpful. I also didn’t love that you had to stick to the theme (this one was forgiveness) and not just talk about what you came there to talk about. I really didn’t love all of the rules that MUST be followed. Some of those folks have been reading those lists over and over for years. It’s like a picture that stays in the same place. After while you don’t see it anymore. I also didn’t like that the steps were the same as AA, for example, ‘I am powerless over alcohol.’ Shouldn’t it, if be more like ‘I’m powerless to change the behavior of another person.’ Why admit to being powerless over alcohol, when you couldn’t care less about drinking?
I have been attending Alanon for 2 years. I have worked the steps. I am beginning to question myself because all of the members in my group do not want to give more than a dollar as a contribution. In reality it takes alot more money to run a small group of ten. There is the responsibility of rent, literature, traveling expenses for area and district meetings. There is also a donation recommended for the Word Service Center. Yet all of these members (all 10) want all of this to be accomplished yet there is nothing they give but a dollar! Really. I mean really makes no sense here. For me, I have decided to stick with my psychologist (who is a professional of course) and as said in those Alanon meetings “take what you like and leave the rest.” I am leaving this group and Alanon. Thanks Alanon for teaching me to leave the rest. And I did just that. Leave
I tried Alanon for a few months and went to about 20 meetings. I am an atheist/agnostic but was promised this was not a religious group. Bullshit. The religion is Alanon, the 12 steps are the 12 Commandments and instead of working out how to truly help yourself you have to submit to God (Alanon) and ask Him(!) to absolve you of any responsibility and freedom of thought. The meetings made me slightly uncomfortable but it was when i got a sponsor and did step1 I realised this wasn’t for me. I tried to explain to my sponsor that I was struggling with praying to an external all powerful being that controlled my life (Higher Power/God/Guardian Angel). His response was to tell me that my only hope was Alanon and to accept God as my salvation. A discussion ensued where he insisted science was not to be believed, the Earth was 6000 years old as the Bible said and fossils were put in rocks by God to test our faith! Then he said even if I didn’t believe I should pretend I do and carry on with the Steps/Commandments. So basically living a lie is what he proposed. Alanon is not a way to get rid of the causes of your problems. It is a way to alleviate the symptoms through delusional beliefs that an external divine being will magically solve everything. There is no interest in you truly getting better because as they say they want you to “keep coming back”. As for not being money oriented, they pass round a collection plate every meeting and then encourage you to buy as much of their tedious literature as possible. So far so cultish. And all the while all you hear are stories about how great Alanon is and yet how miserable everyone is – at no point any practical advice on how to actually improve your situation other than to learn to accept you are powerless.
I get that people find solace in Alanon but it is one based on self delusion, absolving yourself of freedom of thought and responsibility and worst of all claiming that your addict partner is blameless and suffering more than you are because they have a disease and what you have is a lack of faith.
I can’t stand Al-Anon. Honestly. Everyone speaks in generic phrases, and is a victim. A bunch of people sitting around a table with an excuse to vent, not about the specific details, because that’s outlined in the rules, but about their own philosophical understanding, and how they are handling it, and how they are focusing on themselves, and their ‘growth’ and their ‘progress’ and ‘self-care’. And when they have worked themselves into a corner…. BOOM! THEY PULL OUT THE GOD CARD! Well, that’s not fair! You can’t just do that; it’s not an answer for everyone.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I came to a meeting to get some answers. I just ended up with more questions. The fact that these have been attending for years and years…. isn’t that a no-no? A sign that, well, maybe it’s not working and you’re just in a group that will listen to you (sorry, but it’s because they’re forced to). When I spoke, i brought up how i didn’t know how to tell my husband that I was attending these groups; I didn’t know the protocol. Do you keep it a secret? Do you tell them? (No really, I’m really asking). I just got nods, and understanding “mmm” ‘s. Obviously this rant is a little aggressive, and I apologize for that, but … this has been an excruciating and frustrating journey. I need help knowing what actually qualifies as an alcoholic? I need to hear suggestions (not advice, I know… the ‘rules’) but i need to hear pragmatic situations.
at the end of one of the meetings, I asked someone who has been there for a while, what if i have questions about this and this? Who can I ask? but the meeting was over! Poeple were heading to their cars, or chatting about other things! I ended up listening to a story of how one day, she found herself on the floor, ‘on her knees’ looking for something she misplaced, and then that same day, she entered a church, and knew that that was her sign she should “let go and let God”. Thank you, but that helps me with nothing. sorry I’m so bitter.
Wow I went to an Al-Anon meeting tonight and one of the members was totally unethical and controlling! Iāve been attending for two
Years as a way to
Cope with my sons behaviors as an addict to a schedule 1 drug. I have never intended to work the steps. The steps enable oneself to be a narcissist and lack empathy. They donāt help with emotional
Healing or getting answers. It teaches learned helplessness and thatās very toxic.
This lady tonight was abrasive and caused me to feel uncomfortable! I had needed to vent. No one else was talking so I spoke up. One of the members put her hand on my knee(totally unwanted and uninvited touch and told me to hush because others needed a chance to
Yāall. I was 1 min into my venting session, I told the group their way of thinking was learned helplessness and very counter productive to positive growth. After she put her hand on my knee and shushed me I called her out on her bullshit and said, āwhat I said obviously triggered you, letās explore that for you. Letās get real For a secondā she deny it and deflected, another gal began to talk and I stood up I looked at the lady who invaded my space and inappropriately touched my knee and said, āit is not polite to interrupt people. Also, FYI to touch someone with unwanted touch is never okay, ever! And to silence someone who needs to vent in a support group is not okay. Itās never okay and so I left the group. The group is toxic and the word youāre looking for is dubbed ,ālearned helplessnessā thatās what AA and Al-Anon teach you. They apparently do not go over physical boundary setting or empathy. I want to form
A support group where we donāt chant a step
Program or pray afterward. We sit and discuss issues and offer advice if a fellow group member seeks it, like a room full of Dr. Philās or Ann Landers.
What a spot on analogy. The AS folks i know view it as a way of life, not a way to a better life. They stack sober days and collect their chips, and are generally the same miserable people they were before. My wife was sober 7 years without AA, and now drinks socially maybe once a week. There ARE other ways
I am so grateful to have found this page! My husband has been an alcoholic for over 15 years and has finally stopped drinking. I went to an Al-Anon meeting and hated it. I already have a tremendous faith and love my husband. I am extremely independent and despise the idea of focusing on the negative past or victimizing myself. I appreciated the comment about both programs promoting narcissism as that is what I found as well. It was a cult like experience with a lot of unwanted touching – hand holding during prayers, hugging at the end of meetings….if that is what you need, then great. What I need is to focus on my love for my family – including my husband, my faith and my well being. Everyone at the meeting had been coming for over 20 years and were still ābroken, healing etcā. I donāt intend be stuck. People have over come far worse and not had to go to weekly meetings to deal with life.
There were a lot of comments about āonly through this program…ā total crap. What got me through the last 15 years was my sense of self, my faith, my love for my family and empathy. My husband didnāt wake up one day and say iād Like to be an alcoholic. He turned to alcohol during a very terrible period of his life because he didnāt know what else to do. He needs specific coping strategies – not found in the meetings he went to either; and an empathetic loving family. He will be ok and so will I.
I also found it unsettling that they wanted me to bring my children. They jumped on that like vampires. The last thing my 13, 12 and 8 year old need is to learn how to be victims.
Thank you again for the honesty in these posts. Iām grateful I am not on an island with my feelings about AA and Al-Anon.
Most the people commenting went to AlAnon. They don’t like the program because it forces them to look at themselves and realize they are equally part of the problem. These recovery rooms are not supposed to be “fun.” You are there because you are playing a part in someones active addiction and that part can be incredibly harmful to both you and your loved ones.
I’m actually convinced that Al-Anon was mostly created to ensure that folks an AA continue to have a support system. I went pretty regularly for a few years and what really bugged me was that all of the people (mostly women) were frantically trying to fit a meeting in around all of the household responsibilities.
Meanwhile their alcoholic (usually husband) got in as many meetings, massages, gym visits or coffees with the sponsor as they wanted. Al-anon meetings were always after the school buses came, on lunch break, or after dinner time so that the Stepford Wives could take care of the children, not miss any time at work and put everyone to bed before taking care of themselves. And going to a meeting for 45 minutes was progress in the scenario! The idea that my lot in life was to basically be a single parent with an extra kid who had access to all of the accounts was just depressing.
Also, one of the first things anyone attending AA probably hears is that “if you don’t drink you won’t get drunk”. Never once in Al-Anon did anyone say “if you ditch the drunk you won’t be living with a drunk” which seems fairly basic if the program were actually about folks who have been in the periphery of alcoholism getting better.
All that being said, I don’t think that Al-Anon encourages selfishness. In fact I was a little put off by how much responsibility everyone still took on…like it was okay to be the only one adulting in the house… like it was their job to be over accommodating of their alcoholics recovery. It was just a different form of enabling as far as I can tell.
Alanon can be harmful: especially for family members of people addicted to opiates, who need medicine usually. Alanon models irresponsibilty: past, present, and future. As well as abondonment. Of course, some people do need to just detach, and focus on self. For the others, alanon can be deadly abobdonmenr. A kneedle that needs to be tgreaded carefulky.
I am quite disconcerted by my experience of AlAnon. I’ll keep my distance from it for now. If the prise of both AA and AlAnon is that members of both are ill and in recovery, it should come as no surprise that what many who attend both groups come away further damaged. WE are not trained to cope with the outpouring of sick people, all the while accepting that we ourselves are in need of help.
The group I attend has never grown, just a random assembly of 6 or seven bums on very old seats. The venue is a storeroom in an old church owned house. Two AA groups meet in much more accommodating rooms in the same building at the same time.
I have the understanding that the chair is comfortable with the unchanging st-up, it may suit her and her experience of her illness.In the past year another member has joined – probably the most damaged person in recovery I have met. She has disclosed that she has a need for control. And so she controls. She reduces the small amount of floor-space available by bringing her bicycle into the meeting. Her physical and psychological presence pushes others out. She’s not going to recover this way and others are deprived from even trying. AlAnon needs to address its governance. Together with AA reform from the outside can’t be delivered. It has to come from within. Given both organisations memberships are spiritually, psychologically and, sometimes, physically damaged the resources required for reform and good governance are limited.
it’s time for me to move on. Farewell.
My father was an alcoholic and my husband was an alcoholic for the last 15 years of the marriage. I attended Al Anon for 6 years when he began his sobriety journey with AA. My observations about Al Anon women in attendance were: 1. those in attendance were financially dependent on their functioning alcoholic; or 2. she was the breadwinner; 3. most had young children and stayed at home, or 4. were retired and stayed at home; 5. lived an isolated life with the interaction of fellow Al Anons, 6. were hopeless about their own futures but filled with hope about the alcoholic. The six year experience made we question how things in the 2000’s were so different from the conception of Al Anon in 1953. The biggest difference was the financial independence of women in 2000+. And I was one of those women. My mom was financially dependent on my father thru the 1950’s, 60’s, and 70’s, until he was no longer able to earn a living and the marriage fell apart with my mom ending up homeless, and my dad living in a one room bedroom of someone else’s house. They both died by the time I was 27. Drunk, insanity, and eventually death were their choices they made. For me, during the 2000’s, I had a choice to make – remain with the anchor that was pulling me down, or cut loose the line and get to shore. THAT was the reality of my situation. No amount of meetings were going to safe either one of us. My true sanity was the doing the same thing every day expecting different results…living every day with the alcoholic and expecting my life and his to get better. Once I faced this insane thinking, I began to see clearer, and discern what my choices were for the future. Today, the alcoholics in my life are dead. Today, I surround myself with healthy people. Today, I am able to support myself in retirement. Today, I believe that God led me out of the alcoholic family life and into a more reasonable, productive lifestyle. And I have peace and serenity each morning. Something I never was able to capture when living in the alcoholic family and environment. The gals I knew from AL Anon 15 years ago, are still doing all the same things they were doing when I met them, and by now they’ve lost their homes to foreclosure, jobs have come and gone, the kids are grown and gone, but they have the husband they always wanted to control, instead of controlling their own future.. Al Anon needs to consider revisions to their program after 65 years of ‘change’ in the progression of women’s earning potential and job security. Makes a big difference when faced with decisions to be made about others lives (children) and their own. Time to rethink the Al Anon program, or perhaps an alternative program for support to move on and away from the alcoholic family problem and leave the alcoholic solve his own problem instead of Al Anon continuing to teach how to ‘wait’ for the alcoholic to find his solution.
Living with a deceptive alcoholic parading around as a “recovering” alcoholic is just haenous. I attended Alanon meetings for a couple of years and still have no clue at what is the point. For some, AA is hopeless and as such so is Alanon. AA for some is a social club and nothing else. While I understand that Bill Wilson had good intentions, and for some folks
the program works. But after so many years, there has to be some changes made to AA. So many people are addicted to drugs and alcohol and so many cottage industries have spun out of addiction. The person I live with has been within the confines of a rehab facility two times every year within a five year stretch. They keep him drugged, he walks around like a zombie in these places and they charge his medicare outrageous fees and he is no better than the day he waltzed into the rehab. And….he has to be drunk to be accepted. God help
him and people like him but my life has become one hellatious event over this “disease”. Revisions to AA and to Alanon are a must.
I am so sorry to read of so many folks having negative experiences w Al-Anon/Alateen Family Groups….I have learned so much about me….made tremendous positive changes in my life (including a Master’s degree)…maintained a wonderful 40- year marriage…etc etc. Al-Anon has NEVER said it is the end all/be all…..of course it is not for everyone and there are “good” meetings and sometimes “not so good”…..but….to each his/her own…..for me it is a “way of life” filled w faith …friends…fellowship and service to others. About going for decades….I do not think folks usually say to church goers…”Oh….you still go to church?”….it a choice and one I do not regret
I recently had a near relationship with a man who has been in recovery and sober for over thirty years and is a sponsor for other recovering alcoholics. The thing is I am the only person who he has seen that is not addicted. Most of his other “companions” were addicts. Interesting. We had a few fun times but he is very unusual because while he believes (which is good) that we should “take it slow” we rarely go out that much so what’s to “take slow”? When I step back to look at what it is that is there I see nothing. He has told me a few times that this “relationship” “doeson’t work for him” so he has taken me off his FB and Messenger and blocked his phone and for no reason. I am not a stalker LOL. I have heard of “dry drunks” and I think this may be a great illustration of this type of behavior. Anyone else experience this type of thing?
What a great webpage, and the comments are good to read. I have spent alot of my adult life around the rooms of al-anon but have always been a little (or alot) frustrated, for the reasons most people mentioned above. There are so many other healthier ways to heal and grow and alot of these recovery meetings do attract uhealthy people who are controlling or stuck in some other emotional way. AA these days attracts alot of predators who prey on new comers financially, emotionally and worst of all – sexually. Al-anon has it’s share of people who like gather their harems around them because they have ‘time,’ and are an ‘old timer.’ Really? You might have some years in these meetings but you are not anyone I would want to talk to. Many people in these rooms lack empathy and don’t have much relationship capacity, and it can be hard to recognize that when you are new and freaking out.
I appreciate the idea of these meetings and alot of the literature can be very helpful, especially in a good meeting where people are open to change and growth and actively work on doing that. But the goal is not to live in the rooms, we are to heal and go on and live our lives. I also agree that these recovery programs need an overhaul into the modern age. One new approach to sobriety is by a young woman in Brooklyn, NY who created an online sort of program or class based on ‘creating a life worth staying sober for,’ as she puts it. The Tempest School, I think it is called. Al-Anon definitely encourages members to deny the reality of their crazy alcoholic and how they are destroying their own life, we should never tolerate abuse and again – that’s where we need an overhaul into the modern age.
This has not been my experience. Iām several years into Al Anon. It has been extremely helpful to me. Iām free to quit anytime. Iāve had sponsees get better and quit rather than move into more of a service role. I choose to stay for many reasons, but one of them is that I find the service I can provide through Al Anon rewarding, and I gladly give it out of gratitude for the many Al Anoners who helped me when I was low.
I am a spouse of an A who has been sober for 4 years. He attends AA…what I struggle with is I donāt see any emotional changes in our relationship. Matter of fact he is more emotionally attached to his āgroupā than his marriage. When I saw text messages from a Single Woman A to my husband, I thought wow crossing boundaries… Things were said like āReally Happy I got to sit next to youā, I Miss you, When will I see you again, You are my favorite person I donāt know what would happen to my life if you were not in it….and it goes on……Why would another A being a female contact my husband in such a manner? I donāt know how to get help but the āPatā answers from AA and Alanon are always the same.
Can anyone tell me if aa or Alanon encourages people to cut a loved one out of their lives?
Yeah wow does this all resonate. While I can’t agree with the author on alcoholism NOT being a disease, the perils of the 12 steps are not taken seriously.
Alanon makes the user feel better, while making everybody else around them worse.
It’s religious, in a very Christian way, which is to say, you’re a piece of s**t, you’ll always be sick, and keep coming back, have faith that it will work if you keep working it, cause it sure as heck ain’t worked yet. My wife joined Al-Anon since she decided that her mother was an alcoholic. True, mom started getting sloshed a lot more often than usual a few years ago, but to say that her drinking was a problem in childhood and that’s why Wife is a victim? It’s just bull. Wife is a professional victim, race, sex, drugs, alcohol, discrimination, you name it. Along with the bulk of her meetings sometimes several a day. I’ve never spoken bill of program, some days it seems she gets a lot out of it, but long term I see more selfishness, more cruelty, and less responsibility for what’s a pattern of increasing emotional abuse to me and the kids (for the record I have never been an alcoholic or drug user) but yeah the Kool aid flows deep in these rooms. You’ll always be in recovery, and her fighting and alienation with her family and friends has only grown stronger over the years. Not one person does she get along with in her family now, and when I have a beer or eat a piece of cake, I get the knowing look and field comments about having to hit rock bottom before I’ll realize the errors in my ways. And nobody else but the wonderful people in program will ever understand. And when I’m full on having a breakdown from being told what a terrible person I am, I’m told to drink the Kool aid and focus on myself, because I feel the way I feel because I’m broken and need program, and to keep the focus on myself instead of feeling bad for being berated and blamed. Also is it possible for somebody in Alanon to do anything but talk about alanon? It’s insane.
Sorry to hear this. I hope each reader remembers they can go and make up their own mind. I personally feeling deep gratitude for the 12 steps.
Does anyone know if there are any support groups for partners of people going through the AA 12 Step Programme? My wife has had a torrid time with alcohol and is now in AA and extremely committed to it. She has a sponsor and is following 12 Steps. I am very happy she is starting to feel better and I really want to support her and see her sustain her recovery. BUT I cannot get past my dislike and distrust of AA and its methods. I really have issues with the central tenants of AA in as far as you can never be better and if you leave the group you will die / relapse (thus trapping people in the self fulling prophesy), that you are powerless and have to surrender to a higher power, that the Big Book and entire programme was designed prior to any real understanding of the medicine of addiction and focused on male chronic alcoholics in the 1930’s (thus not supporting any room for moderation or people on a spectrum), that despite celebrating its founder Bill Wilson no one talks about the fact he chain smoked, took drugs, had ex-marital affairs and in the final months of his life constantly asked for Whisky and berated people who refused him – and finally that in general terms I see AA as a simplistic binary approach to a complex problem with no room for compromise and trapping vulnerable people in a moral depenency on the promise it will break a physical one. So whilst I really want my wife to be better and support her I am anxious all the time I am going to lose her to this process and doctrine that I have deep suspicions about. Whats more, she has mentioned that she sees AA as more of means of therapy for her mind rather than process to break an addiction which to me is very concerning considering the above and that no one that attends or Sponsors is a trained psychotherapist. If I ask questions or challenge I get stone walled with ‘would you prefer me to die’ or ‘AA is the only way to get better’ – for me it’s heartbreaking and worrying – or am I worrying about nothing?
Well, I am amazed to find this web site implying that Al-Anon and AA don’t work! I have been sober for close to 36 years and in Al-Anon recovery for 34 years. These things don’t work for everybody but as a recent study showed, they are very effective. My life is full today and full of wonderful people.
Both AA and Al-Anon do suggest strongly that you work consistently on the twelve suggested steps, and I have had to do that. I can’t remember who said that “the unexamined life isn’t worth living” but I think that is true. But I have been rewarded with a great life second to none. I have done other forms of Therapy and I can recommend them too. But anyone who says that AA and Al-Anon don’t work has not kept an open mind……or is unwilling to stop drinking or stop using substitutes.
Hi, interesting reading and I support finding what works for you – and I understand peopleās frustration and hostility to AA and Al Anon.
Iāve been attending AA for over a decade and can compare being an alcoholic and stopping drinking (and stopping lying, stopping blaming, taking back personal responsibly for my actions, repairing interpersonal relationships, aka Steps 2 – 9) via AA to something like being chronically overweight/unhealthy and starting at (and staying with) a gym fitness program run by people who used to be chronically overweight/unhealthy but developed a particular way to lose the junk food, get healthy and stay healthy (the 12 steps). Stick with me.
So letās say for my analogy, Sponsor = personal trainer. AA literature = the āhow we got healthy how to guide complete with exercisesā. Meetings = going to the gym. Service = take turns keeping the gym clean, maintaining equipment, so we can all use it and go home and it works when we want to come. Then I DO ALL THIS STUFF WHEN IāM NOT AT THE GYM because thatās what itās for. The point of this gym, this fellowship of AA, is so for the few hours I put in, I stop drinking and stay stopped and the kicker – deal with my other shit- so I can go to work and not go postal, grow in my relationships rather than leave/run, manage my finances rather than buy shit I donāt need/will kill me out of fear or instant gratification etc. I canāt go to the marriage Counsellor, accountant, college lecture etc when Iām drunk. If life is a pizza, for an alcoholic AA is only supposed to be the base that allows all that delicious topping and melted cheese n shit, you with me?
But…
Problem: there are a lot of people in this āgymā who are totally unhealthy and might be saying they listen to their personal trainer, do their 12 step workout routine, eat right, etc but they donāt, or they did for a while but itās hard work so they stopped and are getting by just loitering near the treadmill and bench press (and locker room) and are on the cusp of a heart attack but think theyāre fine because they are not being honest with anybody and people remember āhey thatās joe, he was as big a house but dropped 100 pounds, Joeās alrightā but joe has stopped exercising and just isnāt eating so he looks the same but Joe is FUCKING DYING INSIDE. Life doesnāt stop and Joe and those like him return to become like they were when they joined the gym but without the beer/burger part to create symptoms that make their problem obvious. Itās called āwhite knucklingā and I just read about dealing with Joe and these people in the above thread.
AA and Al Anon meetings have one purpose: to facilitate an environment where you can discover and engage in the 12 step program with people that have had an experience with it and you can remain as anonymous as you feel comfortable.
If they are doing anything else, like peddling shit about the earth being 6000 years old or have turned it into an āintolerable assholes anonymousā or whatever, theyāre not actually holding AA and/or Al Anon meetings. They might call them that and have banners on the wall, but Iāve been in meetings where I have no idea what the fuck half the people are doing there. As a side, AA Meetings also seem to ebb and flow in their strength and focus on purpose, depending on the regulars who are there at the time.
One of the best guys I know in AA who loves life and has been sober for years and helps countless others is an atheist. Personally, I think all the Abrahamic religions are nonsense and Iāve been happily attending AA for years. I had a Jesus freak try it in one day and I just ignored him. Same thing happened to me at the Atlanta Greyhound depot once but it didnāt make me turn on the concept of public mass transport.
I have had experiences I canāt explain through scientific method but can point to the fact that I had these experiences, incredible personal shifts by treating the AA 12 steps like a āhow to fix your carā manual, which is essentially what it is. Itās a practical guide on how to fast track a spiritual awakening so as not to be just another drunk pain in the ass.
On religion: I have no idea what made the universe and I couldnāt give a shit. I do know it wasnāt me – thatās important – and the amends process has healed relationships in every area of my life, plus the new relationships where I didnāt even have areas before. AA uses prayers. Prayers are great, just like most things hijacked and tainted by religion, like ideas about Gods and higher powers.
Now. Take a step back and look at the health and fitness industry. Itās full of crap and conflicting information, right? Itās also full of people who join gyms but donāt listen to the gym instructor, donāt push themselves when it gets uncomfortable or hard,stop. They keep eating garbage, hell they pay for the membership and donāt even go and have the nerve to say I WENT TO THE GYM AND IT DIDNāT WORK. Explain how it doesnāt work to, letās see, I dunno, every competitive weight lifter and strength athlete in the world? It works just fine if you do it.
Now, as far institutions, Iāve met some real
fucking scum bags, male and female, in AA. Iāve also met some of my best friends. Why is this?
The police force has dirty cops. The government has corrupt politicians. Business has men like Epstein. Great movies have been produced by Harvey Weinstein. The Catholic churchās 2nd highest ranking guy was just in jail for child sex abuse. My eighth grade teacher had shit for brains.
AA, like the above, is a microcosmos of society and will often reflect the bias or surrounding culture it is embedded in. There are people that are well, sick and in between.
AA is also the only asylum where the inmates have the keys, buy fuck Iām glad itās there because it was my final stopping point before I walked in front of a speeding train – and it works 100% of the time for me when I bother to follow the instructions from the literature, not the resident guru know-all douche bag or the cat lady with the twitching eye who keeps hitting on me after the meeting. Bless āEm.
I have spent years in AA. Once there was a lady a Alanon who went to those meetings at the same time her husband who had the drinking problem/disease/mental compulsion what the F ever. The thing was the man had problems and the wife loved her husband yet. The machinations of Alanon and AA helped this man hit his bottom on the streets in a cruel way. Something these programs love to emphasize and to support for promotion purposes. There is nothing out of their reach to make the life of someone suffer destroying marriages and lives and to their minds the ends justify the means. This behavior is Psychotic to say the least – these people are the sickest of the sick.
The groups and specifically the individuals involved killed this man after they trashed his marriage. He was a member of the Jehovahās witnesses faith. Still the wife was deceived and participated in the demolition of this manās life and eventually killing him off. As long as it is other peopleās lives they destroy then they are just fine, they made it someone else dies so that others may live. Sickest of the sick. Anyone who is a true cult member in aa or Alanon can go jump. Karma travels steady. I hope and pray these people are punished by god.
It sounds to me the original article had a situation where they were in an unhealthy group. My district Al-Anon meetings in a few counties have all supported me tremendously, and combining that with my church and my therapist supported me to get out of my marriage. Which wasn’t my original intention, but even after my husband stopped drinking, he turned into an angry, angry dry drunk and became abusive.
If you are going to meetings looking for people to be your salvation it’s not going to work. You have to work the actual program, on your own time with a sponsor, and be in a healthy group, which most really are.
I like the healthy analogy to a gym, certainly not the bucket of crabs … which is not only a generalsation but also quite untrue in my experience. I am a grateful member of Al-anon where I find support and freedom if and when I choose to be part of it. Remember it is run by volunteers, with good intention, loving support and tried and tested experience.
Try ACA, or ACoA, however it’s called in your neck of the woods. Much different from Al-Anon or AA, neither of which I care for. But ACA is a different ball of wax. Check out the Laundry List and Tony A’s 12 steps. Very different, no self-flagellation. It helped me leave a relationship with someone I knew to be an alcoholic and who I later learned was also a pain pill/opioid addict. Steeped in attachment theory.
My AA husband has a become emotionally involved with two women in his group. Spending hours on calls and texting. It has reached the level of an emotional affair. AA teaches that only other alcoholics can truly understand each other. I have read that the divorce rate in AA is higher than the success rate. I can believe that. AA is not evidence-based. And should never be prescribed as treatment.
If you desire to maintain your sanity steer clear of AA members as significant others.
Hi I have been going to Alanon for almost 30 years.
The results – making changes, removing myself from toxic relationships, being able to stand up to Workplace bullying, enjoying everyday life, being able to be with those who still have alcohol issues,and set healthy boundaries around behaviours and remove myself when I choose. – In NZ – a population of 5 million there are at least (researched)780,000 hazardous drinkers of alcohol. We know that for every hazardous drinker of alcohol at least 7 -10 persons are affected – in the home in the community and in the workplace. this means over 7 million people in NZ would be impacted in some way by another persons hazardous drinking of alcohol. Therefore the dynamics are inherent in our culture of every day life. Using the Alanon program and my Faith has given me tools to manage my everyday life and enjoy my everyday life no matter what is happening around me. My relationship with God has enhanced and I have learnt the difference between spirituality and religion. I have learnt to feel my feelings again, to have emotional and psychological maturity and freedom and choices. I have learnt to trust my intuition, and to know people who are trustworthy and to be aware of those who are not.. Through the many things that come up as a part of life I have learnt to powerfully move forward and always use my Faith to trust in God. and the word of God. -(I have observed that as our society has moved way from God – stopped prayer in Parliament, refused faith teaching in schools and community and nation moved away from values based on Faith in God that society has changed and there is increased stress, violence and disharmony, crime. For me this is food for thought.
Alanon is not a religious program.
I continue to attend to give back to others and to maintain my way of life. – Like all things in life – EG Sport etc if we don’t keep in training we loose our fitness and don’t perform at our best. Alanon is not an overnight quick fix program – it provides tools with a gentle loving and caring way of healing from living with Alcoholism in the Family. Because hazardous alcohol consumption is normalised in our society behaviours that don’t fit to keep this harmful way of living are often seen as not fitting the norm. I am so grateful and thank God for the life I have now.
My husband’s AA sponsor gives me the creeps. He told my husband that he must phone him every day. He told my husband that he has to tell him ‘everything, and that means everything.’ My husband tells the guy everything! I have no privacy which really pisses me off. I don’t really see how my personal business has any bearing on my husband’s continued sobriety. My husband was ‘in the program’ when I met him, and has been clean and sober for 24 years.
On another note, this creepy sponsor likes to make comments about my looks. I have told my husband that I don’t appreciate his sponsor’s verbal ‘compliments’ and he just replies that his sponsor says these things because I look so young for my age. Really? On what planet is this ok?
This old guy has positioned his self in the middle of our marriage. He has overstepped the boundary line and my husband is blindly following him down the proverbial garden path. If this keeps up our marriage is going to end in a divorce.
Has anyone else encountered something like this?
I quickly realised, nobody was listening when I moaned about the lack of modern free F&F support so I’ve started my own group. Let’s face is the bar is not set very high to do a better job than the so called “non profits” currently available. My website has cost Ā£9.11 total so far and the zoom licence Ā£14 a month. We have attended and run Alanon and SMART meetings they all have their good and bad points. We don’t need to get all evangelical about particular groups. There’s no reason why you can’t combine the best bits and share what works for you. Give it a go, but don’t expect any support from anyone, quite the opposite! LOL. Dave https://www.alternat-i-ves.org
All 12 step programs label a person as diseased with a chronic illness somewhat like how a viral infection is defined.
I told a psychiatrist that these substance abuse groups are a subculture. I received several different diagnoses for that comment.
What sense does it make if a person is trying to get well why should they commiserate with others with the same issue.
If you want to get healthy would it not make sense to hang around healthy people?
Aa is demeaning , it tell people they are less than<
Misery loves company thatās why I will never go to aa meetings to hang around a bunch of coffee swilling cigarette smoking sugar eaters.
Lmfao play the hand you are delt
Thanks for giving me a stick to hang on to so I can escape.
I’m living 24×7 with an alcoholic whose drinking has also gone 24×7. COVID certainly accelerated this process. Witnessing the lifestyle change is terrifying, particularly since I don’t drink. Sheiza. It’s time to get some help.
So I found the 18 hours of misery thinly disguised as help: the daily call-in Al-Anon lines. Binge time! The unwitting crab crawled in for what ended up being a truly miserable week. Learned a few things as follows, in a non-exhaustive list.
1. I never thought it was my fault. Someone wants to drink, let ’em. But no, according to this it WAS my fault. How could it not be my fault if I allegedly “enable” it? Yet at the same time they say it’s not my fault. What?
2. Spiritual program cures disease. Sounds like a tabloid headline. Funny someone can’t stop cancer (a disease) just because they want to. You can stop drinking if you want to. “Oh noes,” quoth they. “You’re just a *dry drunk* if you’re not working your *program.*” For G-d’s sake. . .
3. I need to drop about $150 USD in books from their Virginia location. Never mind my favorite online retailer is cheaper and faster, if I buy it elsewhere then I am not supporting the mission. But, hey, Al-Anon HQ has lowered their shipping rate during this trying time to just $5! What a deal!
4. Sponsorship push. “My sponsor told me x” is heard so often that it makes you wonder what power this random anon on a phone line is supposed to wield.
5. It’s an echo chamber. Like a crab bucket. Literally, you aren’t permitted to comment on another’s “shares.” No discussion, just broadcasting and an echo.
6. Mixed messages. There’s an emphasis on staying, praising those allow themselves to be the punching bag/home health care worker/parole officer. This was very disturbing. YET and the same time you’re supposed to “detach.” PFFTZZBZZZ. There goes another circuit breaker.
7. Pointing out some of these inconsistencies during the after-meetings (where one is permitted to have discussions) results in being told to keep coming back. For what? I need to be brainwashed in order to convince myself of the truth of this? Sounding more and more like a cult.
8. Zero compassion. Let the drunk fail. Let them drive drunk. Let them loose their jobs. Yet at the same time you’re supposed to support them? AUGHPFFT DO NOT WANT.
I’m happy to leave. It’s been a great experience, I realize just how easily I can be manipulated and how weak I am right now. Got to watch out for future crab pots.
Jazak allah khair (loosely “G-d give you the benefit of a good deed”).
After 35+ years of problems drinking and mixed drug abuse, and 18 months of daily black out drinking which, if not stopped, would have killed me – or I would have done it to myself out of despair, I have finally found a ‘bucket of crabs’ that have taught me how to grow. If slating the 12 step program helps you sell more books, bully for you. I have not drunk for 240 days, and I am building a life and a future – 24 hours at a time – surrounded by other grateful, hardworking fellows. No one wails or bemoans their plight: self-pity doesn’t cut it; we all share a common disposition, and a desire to help others. I guess we won’t sell many brain-washing books, but we will make a difference to both our lives, and the lives of others. Humility and empathy being crucial traits to our success as humans. No one is held hostage; charged the Earth by Shrinks. It is a cooperative of people who want to live meaningfully. I owe my life to the fellowship, its principles encourage me to want to help others like me. But we disregard no one. It’s not an elitist, sectarian organisation, it is a kind, committed group of people recovering from an illness, that may be a ‘choice’ to some, but I have known more users recovering with the 12 step program, than all the so-called brilliant scientific minds could muster. Descartes isn’t the last word on ‘Free Will’. I have chosen the only solution that has given results in a career of abuse that spans 40+ years. I am rarely drawn into these kind of debates, but false claims damage so many people. If the program is followed correctly, with rigorous honesty, it works. It is not one size fits all, but someone makes the point better than I ever could: ‘There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation’. – William Paley. ( Not as the books suggest; Herbert Spenser).
Yeah, gone to fellowships for 28 years of my 55y life. Still alive after struggling with my self-will 22 years, relapsing maybe 200 times. Don’t tell me I have no disease but answer to yourself. If something else works for you, fine. I am doin this by the grace of loving God as I understand him. Usually the most critics comes from people not going to meetings or tried too few. I went ab 1500 meetings in three first years and miracle happened. Back to program, back to life. I am thankful. Thanks for a clean day and for letting me share. Thank you for being. Peace out.
I do not disagree or agree. I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And you have made yours. But I will comment on judgement. The bucket of crabs has proven to work for a lot of people that is what matters isn’t it. Some people need to be brain washed into believing they have a choice or they just need someone to understand how disfuctionsal they are and give them hope of a better way. Or show them how to obtain it. But some people aren’t as bad or aren’t suffering like others and they have a clear view of what’s needed and don’t need help getting there. And it’s hard to understand something you haven’t gone through. Which also means your not equipped to make such judgments upon things you don’t fully know. It’s ignorant. You can have your opinion all day long but to judge another shows your character. If it works let it work. If it doesn’t find something that does. At least it’s something striving for a better life nothing is perfect,. Nothing is full proof so at least accept it has helped more people than you can imagine and way more than crabs you have unfortunately had experience with. Licensed professionals will recommend a twelve step program and it has better statistics on working than ones own self will has ever had. All in going to say is before you judge make a continuous effort to actually understand and gain all the facts first hand, research more than one place you happened to go or the few. There are thousands and thousands of meetings not one is exactly like another. It’s not supposed to be.. that’s the point. The foundation is what it follows and that’s written clear to see in a book. Yes people come in with problems that’s what the group is for. But they should leave feeling better bit even with a solution to said problems. So with out criticizing first. Open your mind to gray areas. You might be enlightened even learn a thing or two.Understand the people you pass judgement on. And instead of back mouthing something that clearly works because you can’t grasp why it works,. Learn why it does work and spread more options for help rather than trying to eliminate one that do. Maybe not for all but enough to be at least an opinion for those who need it