The “Bucket of Crabs” is one of our favorite analogies. Pulling crabs out of traps on Kodiak Island, we’d just toss them into a big bucket – no need to put a lid on the bucket.
Why not?
Because as soon as one crab would start to climb out, the other crabs would drag him, or her, right back down into the bottom of the bucket. There’s no escape to life back in the ocean.
And that keeps happening until all of the crabs end up in the steamer.
The point?
Pick your support group with care. Most so-called alcohol support groups are, in fact, merely a bucket of crabs that will keep dragging you back down to their level. Try and escape and you’ll be warned that it’s too dangerous to get a life, or to mingle with “normies,” or grow up. It’s too dangerous to stop building your life around alcohol.
So you stay in the alcohol bucket, drinking or not, or complaining about your spouse, or parents, or children, or……
And what’s the point of all of this?
Obviously the point is to avoid actually making any real change. That’s what groups like AA and Alanon and Alateen do best, they help you maintain the “security of familiar miseries” – as we termed it 25 years ago – instead of fixing your life.
But why would you want to trade the illusory security of the crab bucket for an actual life out in the real world?
Remember, despite all of the con men and hucksters, alcohol abuse is a choice and you are free – not powerless – to make a different choice at any time. If you’re the spouse, parent, or child of an alcohol abuser, you are also free to make choices, including the choice to get a life of your own. Not a life focused around another’s alcohol abuse.
You can always choose to be recovered, not in crippling, life-denying, “recovery.” You can choose to be an ex-drinker just as many of us are ex-smokers. You can also choose to be someone who used to waste you life on a drinker but got a grip, got over him or her, and got a life of your own.
Please, alcohol abuse is a choice, not a disease, and you can escape the AA/Alanon Bucket of Crabs. Don’t let the doomed continue to drag you back to share their misery and their fate.
[…] a bit more info on this contentious topic? Read our Bucket of Crabs analogy on why AA and Alanon are bad for your […]
[…] who are leading the sorts of lives you wish to emulate – stay away for the nay-saying “Bucket of Crabs ” losers whose only real interest is in keeping you as miserable as they […]
Interesting analogy. Like yourselves we believe that people do not need to be powerless or view themselves as such. In fact there are many, quite powerful, things that partners and family can do that will exert an influence on the drinker.
[…] those who’ve decided to continue with an alcohol focused life – our proverbial “Bucket of Crabs” – to help you leave that behind. That’s never going to […]
[…] “Bucket of Crabs “ or why AA and Alanon are bad for your health; […]
i totally agree with all of this information…i have been in and out of 12 step programs…two years with families anonymous…i have decided to stop going…it has turned out to be a social club and a poor me club and a doomsday news club……there is no alternative where i live……i was a drug counselor and i am interested in starting a new program in my area to help people……
wow, then why is it the oldest and most successful program ever? this is for profit…who are you kidding. who benefits hers? you , or the addict. reality is, if you stick to the 12 steps, and do them, and obviously you live them for the rest of your life, you can live a much peaceful life, and guess what, its free.
there are good meetings and bad meetings, you shop til you find a home. ultimately, its your choice to work the steps, and that is the miracle, when you work the steps, the drinking and the obsessive behavior stop.
I don’t know if I am free to respond to PUHLEASE’s response, but I have to say something even if it is only to myself. The reason AA and Alanon has been around so long is because they guarantee membership by stimulating the desires they are trying to get rid of. I was heavily involved with Alanon and AA for many years. I listened to the members INSURE they would be back by glamorizing their stories of drinking over and over again. Much laughter ensued as they each “topped” the other’s story. When the real world objected to their dangerous behavior,they felt bad about their behavior but they knew that if they returned to a meeting, they could get a “laugh” and feel better. “It works when you work it, keep coming back” was at the end of every meeting and you bet, they all came back for a laugh. PUHLEASE, as an Alanoner or AAer you have one and only one identity, you are a member of AA or Alanon. There is nothing more to you, no other aspect to your life. Look it up in their books, it’s all right there. This is a cult that has gone mainstream.
I want to apply all of your dynamics but I am without a job..
I cannot afford California..I live in a poverty state–Florida.
I do not accep the “AA” philosophy”. I would not be caught dead with many of them.
I respect and admire the 12 steps but I cannot and will not believe I am like them.
No “DUI’S, arrests,loss of jobs.
I have lost my self esteem and I am not in control of what I always believed in.
What do u advise for a woman who raised 3 kids,worked her entire life and now finds no assistance??
BTW–I am on bio-identical hormones. Eat well etc..
Judy
Judy:
You can try to do this without going to a program. Get a good book on CBT, such as Three Minute Therapy ( for your self-esteem issues)
[…] The Bucket of Crabs or Why AA and Al-Anon are Bad For Your Health. […]
Responding to PUHLEASE
“…if you stick to the 12 steps, and do them, and obviously you live them for the rest of your life, you can live a much peaceful life,”
Anyone can come up with a mantra and tell you that if you stick by it you will be much happier. Here’s one, “Just don’t drink and stick to this logic and you will be much happier.” See how easy it is? The problem is that there truly is a “bucket of crabs” mentality in AA. I used to be a participant, and then one evening during a “veterans” meeting, I started to hear these stories of people who had been ‘coming back’ for 5, 10, 15 years. The meetings had become their social structure and had become more or less a dating club because they had pretty much damaged any normal relationships they had. They all took turns relapsing. That’s when I realized if I was going to help myself, I couldn’t do it within AA. They were literally holding each other back from ever fully recovering by turning AA into a type of social club. I’m happy for whomever is helped by it, but it was not for me.
[…] the The Bucket of Crabs […]
Hello, I am currently stuck in a household with 2 alanone’s. Believe me they try to make my life a living hell because I drink. They are all in on it, two sisters, they try so hard to break me everyday. I have developed a tough skin and that’s all they have contributed to my life. If anyone’s interested in talking about a similar situation feel free to contact me rmad_303@yahoo.com
I like this bucket of crabs analogy, there is a lot of truth in it. Sadly many groups do foster wallowing in fear, guilt and complacency over the realities that genuine change and a truly full-life require.
Interesting site. Went to A.A., worked the steps and studied the literature. If one would look to the history of A.A. you can see for yourself the indoctrination process. Even the founders fell for the propaganda. Considering that they were all end-stage alcoholics and drug addicts it is easy to see why they “swallowed the cool-aid”. My big complaint is the lack of or resistance to, having studies done which show the “real” outcomes of A.A. My guess from examining the peripheral studies is this is a destructive fellowship which causes harm to a majority of the population it is purported to assist.
While it is tre that AA has helped some people find and maintain sobriety, whatever that is, it is also true that it has harmed far more. And with a less than 3% success rate it’s hardly the miracle it’s adherents claim. Good to remember that most of those whose “stories” are told in the Big Book died drunk…..
My husband was court ordered for 5 months to go to AA meetings. He had stopped drinking on his own for almost 25 years,he is 70 years old.
He was laid off from his job of almost 30 years,and was depressed. He had apparently stopped off for a couple of beers,a car ran a stop sign and hit him(minor accident thank god).Both drivers were given Breathalyzers,his was over the limit;he was arrested the car was towed,we have at least $5000 in fines,dui school, madd meetings,etc to pay and it has been a nightmare We live on SS.
When my husband was in court and stated that this was the first time in 25 years he had slipped the judge said no, this is the first time you got caught.This is not true.But there is no way to prove this. I know he hasn’t drank; after being married for 47 years I sure would have been the first to know,but he did do a foolish thing even stopping off like that,and now he has to pay for that foolishness.
He was ordered to go to 3 meetings a week at AA. As I have to drive him around for now I stay at the meetings.As there is no place for me to go at that time in the morning. A lady invited me to an Al anon meeting down the road and I went. They are extremely depressing and no one wants to talk about successes only the night mares of living with a drunk.
My husband was never violent nor did he miss work and I found that it is not good to talk about the positive things at these meetings,no one seems interested in hearing good things or how to make their lives better, only trying to top each other’s sad stories.I went to 3 of these Al Anon meetings but it was depressing nothing positive ever seemed to happen to these people,I mentioned once that he got a part time job welding and that it has helped ;it was met with complete silence and then someone started talking about how her husband lost dozens of jobs another said they are on unemployment and acted annoyed at me for even bringing this up.So I decided I rather sit in at the open AA meetings instead.
AA is exactly how you describe it to be.And my husband was told that he must admit he had a disease and that he has to make amends and recognize how the disease has made him sick. Its all so very depressing and a bit scary as well. He has to attend till May then it will be at least another 3 months before we can pay everything off. They have added $30 drug tests as well,although he does not do drugs so am not sure why he has to be tested. He asked and they said they do that to every one. More money coming out.
Susan, yours is certainly a cautionary tale and my heart goes out to you and your husband. I did 30 days at Betty Ford last year (the ‘best’) paid with $30k I could not spare, and came home to nothing different. All that therapy and group counseling did nothing to help me change or even cope with the untenable situation I’ve been in for 15 years of a seriously brain-injured very, very sick husband, who just keeps hanging on through the weirdest diseases and side effects you’ve NEVER heard of. Family support has been non-existent, and I can’t really blame them, because who the hell wantanything to do with that? I did my 90 meetings in 90 days and liked the groups I attended a lot. But I was very shy about opening up and adding my sad, bizarre tale to everyone else’s. Someone told me once that when people are sharing, only 20% are listening and the other 80% don’t really give a shit about you and your problems anyway. I found that to be a very apt statement. So. I stopped going and did very, very well for some moths. This last round of my husband’s health crisis, where someone (not me or his doc) made the decision to save his life YET again, absolutely did me in. Now I’m researching what to do brpefire I kill myself, as that where this is going. I’m afraid. Well, sorry to dump on you, but thanks for letting me share. Good luck, Susan, to you and your husband.
Susan- I am so sorry to hear this. Are you aware that in 25 states in the USA already you can not mandate AA as it already has been deemed “too religious” ? IN the 9th Circuit Court , as well , yet every day in los angeles in 3 courthouses AA judges are doing it illegally every day, because average citizens do not know the law. Many judges have no idea what is really going on in AA today. nor do they care. My heart really went out to you. I left AA after 3 decades. Im happier now and I am making a Documentary about all the sexual perdition, sexual harassment and murder and rape going on in AA and its culture.
Mary Mckrell- oh my …please do not kill yourself. CAN you attend a Smart Recovery, or an Moderation Management Meeting or call the many bloggers that AA does not work for. Im really sorry for what you are going through. I hope you can hang in there.
As a member of Al anon for the past 20 years I can’t recommend it highly enough, as a young women with two babies and living with an alcholic i was desperate and in great emotional pain. There was very little support available to me and i am so grateful for the support of my local al anon group. In this group I learnt to make healthy choices, my self esteem grew and I became a much better person. Powerlessness is a part of the programme that completely set me free from the behaviours of the alcoholic in my life as for a long time i had tried to control his drinking. The change in me and detachment from him allowed him to seek his own recovery through AA and he is 19 years clean and sober.
Al anon is not perfect nor the people in it. But its made up of people who have been deeply hurt by their own addictions or living with anothers. the psychological emotional damage of us people should not be minimised or ridiculed. I have not been brain washed and I am free to take the suggestions offered, or not in the al anon rooms.. Al anon and AA is not everyone’s path of recovery, but it is a free support group open to everyone and anyone who requires its support. It has helped millions of people over the world. And today it’s wisdom and programme is being tapped into by policy makers and governments, as it seems to be a 50 year old programme of recovery that does exactly what it says on the can, “Al anon is a fellowship of men and women who share their experiences, strength and hope, In order to solve their common problems. We believe alcholism is a family illness and that changed attitudes can aid recovery”
So for those of you who are living with the painful effects of addiction, or living with an addictive partner, parent or family member I would say give us a go. And if you don’t like it or its not for you, we take absolutely no offence and wish you well in looking for an alternative that works for you.
[…] expect those who’ve decided to continue with an alcohol focused life – our proverbial “Bucket of Crabs”- to help you leave that behind. That’s never going to happen. Remember – if you want to […]
very interesting…long have I looked to AA for help. Reading these new thoughts, very insightful. Yet as a drinker there is no coin to spend 5 days wherever it may be. Thx for the thoughts, am almost homeless, need to find another way
AA is glossy on the outside but completely FUBAR. No free thinking outside of the rhetoric and doctrine. Plenty of abuse of logic and twisted thinking. “Have you stopped drinking in the bathroom?” kind of questions and bullying. Either way you answer you get pulled further down into the bucket and labeled as in denial because of powerlessness. AA did more harm than good to my career, family and recovery. Same blind mindlessness as religion and politics. F**K You Bill W.
Let’s talk about the efficacy of AA and it’s 12 Step Religion based on faith healing. You do realize it’s a religion don’t you?
Not that it even matters that much because the 12 Step methodology has zero efficacy anyway.
Even AA’s own “research” shows that it has less than a 5% first year “retention” rate. That’s retention rate which isn’t even a “success” rate because if you call joining a “program” without an EXIT plan as a success, than you’ve got issues. Not to mention, how many of that 5% leave in year two?
Now let’s talk about the methods utilized in AA’s 12 Steps.
Instead of empowering people and giving them the skills to understand and overcome their underlying issues, the first thing AA does is tell them that they are powerless. Nice.
Then they tell people who are at a low point in their lives and that are suffering from low self esteem, that they need to SURRENDER their free will. Again, the stupidest advice ever.
Living as a “recovering” “alcoholic” “One day at a time” for ETERNITY is not recovery. Recovery implies having RECOVERED and moving on with your life instead of, as they do in AA, reliving your “sinful” past on a daily basis in meetings and with your qualified for nothing sponsor.
Please don’t give me the “AA is spiritual not religious” spiel. Just look at Steps 3, 6 and 7 and please tell me how this is NOT religious. You can’t do it so don’t even try.
AA thrives on guilt, fear and groupthink and has so many of the characteristics of a true cult that it’s downright scary.
It’s the year 2014 and people with dependency issues deserve and should demand more than a faith healing borderline cult that tells you to choose a “higher power” that can be anything from God to a Unicorn or AA itself. Actually the latter is the true intent.
It’s archaic, disturbing and lacks any efficacy whatsoever. And did it ever occur to anybody that the 5% or so that seem to stop drinking when they get to AA, would have done so ANYWAY. I mean for somebody to actually walk down those wretched basement steps and raise there hand and say, I’m Rolf and I’m an alcoholic, you are probably ready to put the bottle down regardless of what lunacy you hear in those rooms. The sad part is that a lot of those people would have figured out their stuff and moved on but now they’re immersed in a religious cult that won’t let them leave without threats of insanity, jails or death. Very nice, once again
Peace, Rolf http://www.thefreedomtorecover.com
The bucket of crabs analogy is very perceptive. I quit AA and scaled those shiny plastic container walls after 14 years.
I didn’t want to leave but due to the fallout from a failed relationship with someone in my local meetings, I had no choice.
It took a lot of effort to get away from the other crabs. I was convinced I’d drink and die as a result of leaving, and many AAs told me exactly the same thing.
Happily, however, that hasn’t happened. Instead I’ve compiled a set of resources for others interested in “Leaving AA, Staying Sober” at http://jonsleeper.wordpress.com – I hope you find it helpful if you’re stuck in the bucket too.
Here’s another analogy for AA’s anachronistic mental health technology. Would you drive a car that was built in 1939? Maybe it would be OK on a 1930s road with 1930s traffic, but certainly not on a modern freeway in 2015. That would be ridiculous, wouldn’t it..?
I was a reluctant member of Al Anon for 5 years. This was eight years ago, and the day I decided to leave was empowering. I was extremely vulnerable, and felt loved and accepted at the beginning. As time progressed, I sought professional help, and started to question the entire premise of the 12 step programs. I could have never left my husband in Al Anon. The “program” suggested that I stay married “one day at a time.” I had misplaced compassion for my husband, who was constantly “relapsing” in AA, and kept coming back with his tail between his legs, and accepting his “one day chip” over and over again. It was a living hell for 5 years. Finally, he left AA, I left Al-Anon, and he used again. Three weeks later, I contacted a divorce attorney, and calmly told my husband, that I will be going through divorce proceedings if he continues to use. He had a tantrum, left for 24 hours, came home, and has not used in 8 years. I drug tested him for 2 years, and 12 step programs became a thing of the past. I then developed my own “wine o’clock” problem six years later. I vowed to never attend AA, and have been successful moderating my alcohol intake to about 4 drinks per week. I go on non 12 step websites to gain information, insight and inspiration and go to non 12 step counselors to help with other issues in my life.
My husband is an alcoholic and would manipulate me and guilt trip me to stop me from leaving him, while he sought no help for himself and made excuses or flat-out lied about his drinking. It was destroying our marriage and my life. I stopped going out with friends because if I left him home alone he would easily drink a half bottle of vodka.
A friend of mine who had been in a relationship with an alcoholic asked me to come to an AlAnon meeting. She was presenting that day and talked during the presentation about her sponsor and how she now had a sponsee herself. I realized “holy sh**, she’s talking about ME”. Keep in mind this was my very first meeting. I had no idea if I was coming back nor had we ever discussed her being my sponsor. At first I was weirded out but then I felt grateful. Wow, I had a sponsor! I felt so welcome. She loaned me a book which I tore through. I learned some things that I found very valuable.
Then I went to my second meeting. As an atheist (but a spiritual one, if that makes sense) I was struggling with this Higher Power concept. I couldn’t “give my problems over to my Higher Power” or “trust in my Higher Power’s will” because the things I considered a “Higher Power” weren’t sentient. But I tried. I thought about it very hard while listening to everyone’s stories during that second meeting. This is when I started noticing something. Instead of thanking the group of people they were with for their support and encouragement, person after person talked about how grateful they were to /the program/ and how they wouldn’t be alive today if it weren’t for the 12 steps; how they were “diseased” and AlAnon helped them see that. There were people who’d been with the group for five, ten, fifteen years…. some LONG after they’d left or been abandoned by the alcoholic. There were people who weren’t even dealing regularly with an alcoholic; their estranged /grandparents/ whom they barely knew were the alcoholics, for example. And yet here they were.
They had become addicted to the group.
But it wasn’t just the members. It was the material, read at every meeting. Over and over you were told that the program would work if you let it, implying if it didn’t work it was your fault; you weren’t trying hard enough. It tells you that you were powerless, that you had to give yourself up to this Higher Power, that the group’s health was more important than the individual’s. It tells you that you need to take care of yourself but then demands “service” as one of the ways to “heal”. They make you read the 12 steps and traditions at every meeting, some of which make sense but others send off massive red flags.
There were some things that gave me food for thought but overall it does feel very cultish, and I’ll admit: I’m afraid to return. If I told anyone in the program this, they would dismiss it as I’m afraid to change. My “sponsor” herself told me at the beginning that there were a lot of things that wouldn’t make sense in the beginning and that’s okay. It reminds me of church, and how if you would question anything they would just say that it’s a mystery and beyond our ability as humans to understand.
I was helped by being able to get out about the alcoholic that I left. However, after 3 meetings, I am coming to believe that I’m just rehashing the same stuff about him, and I need to move on. I will not help myself move on from him emotionally if I keep talking about him.
I’ve been to a few meetings and decided I feel worse when I leave so no more. Nice enough people but too many looking to control you. I’ve been tricked into thinking it is a safe place only to be humiliated Ina large group for taking up more than my share of time. (My 3 minutes stressed the group I guess). Then I made the mistake of sharing about another group that offers help for divorced people. I realize it was a no no after I was approached by the FIRST person afterward. I seriously felt beat up after the SIXTH person “gently” told me about the rule! I don’t think large groups with pages of rules and rule ninjas are for everyone. I’ll deal with my problems at home where it’s safe thanks.
Good but flawed analogy…..speaking from experience……one cannot put in a nutshell or explain in a simple analogy the intricacies that go on in someone’s life; who seeks help, gets it, in turn helps others, gets married in, raises a family in and has made it their life. Al-Anon and A.A. are life savers….can help put families back together and help individuals recover from alcoholism and the effects of alcoholism. On the other hand, people who go to these programs are people and there are some groups that adher to practices beyond the three legacies (Steps, Tradtions and Concepts) which sadly to say; they twist spiritual principles and interpret and build on ideas to the extent that the group has many if not all of the characteristics of a cult under the guise of A.A. and Al-Anon. One can be a member of such a group on the outskirts and have no idea of what is actually going on in the core of the group. Those on the outskirts tend to be idealistically principled people who look up to those in the core. Is A.A. And Al-Anon a cult ……I say to that a resounding….NO…..however…groups within it can be a cult or cultish.
My son went to treatment for Marijuana addiction
Some say it’s not real, I believe it is
My wife, who doesn’t drink, joined alanon for support thru the process. She is now up to 4 meetings a week, we are on the brink of divorce because we never see each other, her new social circle is all 50 something divorced women who have convinced her she has been neglected by me for. The last 5 years. She has gone on 5 European vacations with her best friend, a cleaning lady and om home every night by 600. Grill burgers or steaks for dinner and spend the night together watching TV or reating together.
This cult has dragged my wife down to a depressing level of life she has never seen,before. 26 years of marriage, survived 8 months apart in our 1st 2 years, (1st gulf war). I don’t even know how to pull her back from these people. I know all,the material things don’t ensure happiness, but we were very happy before she fell into the bucket
I recently left an alcoholic boyfriend. Got tired of the abuse I suffered during his black outs. I’m reading about al anon. I’m REALLY wanting to gety life back. I want to try al anon for a short time, but don’t want to be CO dependent on them. I just want to learn to cope, and be happy single. One thing I REALLY disagree with is I helped contribute to his dysfunction. No way. I am in NO WAY at fault.
I also want to say I want my friends back, and it appears al anon people really only hang out with other al anon people, and constantly cry about situations after 20 years…that’s why I only want to try a few meetings. Just enough to learn to cope, and MOVE ON.
My elderly mom has been obsesssed with alanon after my parents divorced over 30 years ago. She can not move on and makes poor choices for heraelf based on advice from her alanon friends. Now she has early dementia, and it is a struggle to see her. We can not have a conversation without her telling me a sob story of one of her alanon friends. I believe this group keeps her down, dependent and unable to think for herself. I am sure yhere are positives, but too many pity parties and sib stories that prevemt people from moving on.
If you you think 12 step programs work, go to one and ask them how many people have gotten better, graduated and recovered. They’ll tell you that nobody recovers and they are dependent on that program for life because they’re powerless. If you call that success you’re sicker than you think.
I went once and never again as my boyfriend at the time was an alcoholic and never around and I had the misfortune to encounter them on their stall at a public event. The stall holders were very manipulative and managed to make me cry though I don’t cry easily now. It was the most depressing experience. The room was also dilapidated and depressing as AA gets the best meeting room which is the downstairs front room. I have attended meetings in the same room though hosted by other organisations and they weren’t as depressing.
I would rather sit at home and watch paint dry or watch TV programmes that I hate than attend another Al-Anon meeting even though I didn’t speak much. Couldn’t get a word in edgeways anyway as there were some people who want to do all the talking and that’s even with only a few people in the room. I broke up with my boyfriend shortly afterwards as that was the best thing to do. I hardly ever saw him anyway. He never visited me.
A few years later I found the old Orange Papers website which I found very useful but unfortunately it no longer exists. I do not see alcoholism as a disease but more a lifestyle choice especially in the early stages. Nicotine is much more addictive than alcohol and easier to get hooked on and harder to give up.
I complained on an unrelated health blog that I kept meeting alcoholics; boyfriends, friends, friends of friends, colleagues and neighbours and the blog owner asked what it was about me that kept attracting alcoholics into my life. It is not my fault that they are around me. It is because alcoholism and binge drinking is growing with cheap alcohol available in supermarkets which are now open until 10pm, longer pub opening hours in the UK and stronger alcohol content in drinks although proof of age is required much more now. I’m not one for raising the drinking age though. I see alcoholism as a societal problem and not just an individual problem.
My daughter has struggled for years with a substance use disorder. She finally really began to recover when she left AA/NA. She got away from the insanity, is now relying on MAT and professional therapy, counseling, and medication from her psychiatrist who treats her bipolar disorder. She’s a totally different person now, ready to return to finish her nursing degree, being a good mom, and not wasting her time in meetings with people who are utterly messed up. She’s empowered, not helpless.
I attended Alanon for a while. Hated it. I don’t drink, but the only time I ever felt as if I needed one was after an Alanon meeting.
I’m disturbed by this article and that you two are real doctors. You’re obviously not alcoholics and have not really lived with real alcoholics. My husband has a disease, it may be self medicating from other issues and then blow out to full on alcoholism but it is not just a choice and will power alone will not make him or anyone else better. And no you’re not powerless. You go to meetings (it’s not religious and it’s not a cult and you do things the way you want to and progress at your comfort level), and you talk about your feelings. It isn’t that you dwell in misery but you realize that you are not alone and you are not all that matters and the idea of a higher power is a spiritual term for connecting to the universe. That means it’s nothing at all the way you describe it. But your condescending tone was enough to know how defensive and emotionally closed-off you “doctors” are so here is my advice for someone who came here for help and not to preach or rant or act like a Reddit whore: read and study what AA and Al anon are about…read “it will never happen to me”, and the AA big book. If you scoff at this and quit drinking for a few years by will power OR you look around at alcoholics as making all these choices on their own, you really probably are a real pain in the ass to be around and wouldn’t last at AA or Al ANon on anyway. (You would have to pay attention to more than yourself and your ego).
It is religious, and that has been legally recognised in half the states in the USA. The first step in the AA programme is “we admitted we were powerless” – so adherence to the programme does entail that “admission” and much else offered – like lifelong attendance, is predicated on that admission. According to AA’s own membership surveys, https://www.scribd.com/doc/3264243/Comments-on-A-A-s-Triennial-Surveys, more than 85% of attendees drop out after less than a year and never return – so AA fails to help most people who approach it. Despite many, many attempts (scientific research) to demonstrate that AA, the steps, meeting attendance or a therapy programme based on the steps (or any combination of these) are efficacious in reducing drinking and/or improving the qualiity of life of adherents, almost no evidence has emerged supporting this view. I have studied and read about AA, and indeed attended it for many years, and those are the facts. No-one has suggested “will power” is the way forward. There is now an extensive evidence base for alcohol and drug treatments that are non medication based and have far better outcome statistics than AA. The refusal to accept criticism evident amongst so many fellowship folk these days would have been utterly abhorrent to AA’s founders. The part of the literature that’s best, and forgotten most often, written eighty odd years ago by a bunch of white, middle class, middle aged men “we realise we know only a little”. I have no need to attack the organisation – and I am not doing so. I am simply stating some well evidenced facts. Claudia, I am genuinely happy you have found an approach which you find helpful. But if my words collide with your faith, perhaps you could consider the idea that AA isn’t the only way and isn’t for everyone, yet in the USA particularly, it is often assumed that it is.
Thank for sharing. Lot of powerful thoughts and stories.
There are definitely alanon meetings I’ve been to that are depressing and draining, as well as meetings that are inspiring where peoples lives have changed for the better. I used to party a lot and AA 12 step changed the lives of seven people I know directly who no longer drink and are a LOT happier and easy to get along with and still go to meetings. Definitive statement like the above are hyperbolic. Not sure why the meetings work for some and not for others, but a good meeting is necessary. I’ve worked the Stepped Up Alanon program and it’s changed my life for the better. It’s not religious, its spiritual, and that is totally up to you.
In my experience, AA and 12-step groups are generally too dogmatic and are certainly, with few exceptions, too Judeo-Christian-oriented for many who’ve been exposed to and appreciate other worldviews – not just atheist/agnostic, but Far Eastern, Indigenous/nature-based, etc. Unfortunately, while non-12-step based approaches are increasing, they are too scientifically dogmatic. SMART recovery and CBT, for instance, claim that much of the “work” can be done alone in front of a computer. This is insanity in its own right, and simply feeds the loneliness and emptiness that most “alcoholics” and “addicts” feel. That loneliness and emptiness is real, it is not a “thought” that can be changed, and it requires a loving, understanding real-life human being to listen and understand. All the well-intentioned rational science in the world cannot replace an understanding companion. The folks who come up with this stuff are presumably already grounded in substantive, meaningful human relationships, so can afford to spend time theorizing and then turning their theories into programs for the downtrodden. But their programs are utterly useless to one who doesn’t have a safe, secure, meaningful social environment.
Both 12-step programs and rational, science-based programs are too dogmatic in their respective approaches. We need a middle ground, something that feeds the heart, mind, and soul in a patient, compassionate way, recognizing and accepting each person where he or she is at. Something structured, but not too much so.
I think AA is correct in recognizing the need for face-to-face, human contact, and in providing the environment, however unhealthy those environments may be. But their approach, despite claims to the contrary, is in reality pretty mean-spirited. They seem to say that they accept you as a human being and recognize that your flaws are just behaviors that came from a bad place (a disease, family dysfunction, so on) and aren’t inherently you, yet the program proceeds to break you down in what is often a very shame-based process. This simply isn’t healthy.
On the other hand, SMART Recovery and similar cognitive approaches don’t really focus at all on your underlying humanity. They just focus on changing thinking and behaviors. This can be refreshing for someone who has experienced the guilt and shame often induced by AA, but it doesn’t address underlying emotional issues. CBT and similar purely rational approaches naturally filter most things through the lens of science and as such medication is often encouraged, or at least not discouraged, in these settings. But for those of us who’ve been on a variety of antidepressants over the years, we know how toxic these drugs are, with all their nasty side effects. We’ve also read about the fallacy of the serotonin theory and about all the scientific corruption in the interest of making loads of profits for the pharmaceutical companies. In short, while these pills anesthetize our brains in some way they are not in fact doing what the marketing says they are doing, and if takes impotence, weight gain, nose bleeds and all other manner of “side effects” in order to allegedly make our defective brains “right,” we’d just as well risk smoking a little pot or drinking a beer to feel better, even though we know where it will lead. At least it’s honest. Anyway, a pill can’t satisfy the soul.
So, we’re back to the soul, a subject usually equated with religion, or spirituality, or what have you. And we’re back again to AA, the only program out there that in any way addresses this element, yet does so for most people in a negative way (I won’t get into the statistics again here…they’ve been cited ad nauseum and suffice to say AA “works” for an incredibly small percentage of people who ever come into contact with it. It’s unappealing to the vast majority, and AAers can repeat “It works if you work it” until the cows come home, that won’t change the reality. In fact, they have been repeating this, and continue to do so. With the same ugly results.
I’m actually always amazed at the AA folks who are on boards such as this vehemently defending AA. I understand if, say, a person or a nation is attacked, it has to defend itself. But this is not an analogous situation. While people’s negative experiences with AA often boil over to hostility and attack, very few people have ever said they want to abolish AA. I’m one who thinks, based on my personal experience, that AA not only is not effective for many if not most people, but is actually actively harmful for many people. Yet despite that, I’m not campaigning for its abolition. I’d simply like to see it offered as a choice among many, with a disclaimer as to its potential harmfulness.
Many AAers like the analogy of going to a meeting as “taking one’s medicine.” That’s never been a very workable analogy for me, but as long as it’s being used, may as well give the same warnings that come with medicines. And while I’m at it, if one goes to a doctor and is given a medicine and it doesn’t work, the doctor doesn’t proceed to say, “It worked for Johnny, it must work for you. It works if you keep taking it.” Actually, these days, who knows what a doctor might say, the profession is so utterly corrupted, and I have heard more and more doctors simply don’t believe their patients’ firsthand experience. Tarred as “anecdotal” and thus not inherently reliable by the techno-scientific overlords, personal experience is a thing of the past. But, assuming our patient visited an old school doctor, said doctor would not continue to prescribe the same medication that the patient reported as not working. He would work with his patient. He may even exhibit a modicum of what used to be known as good bedside manner. Hell, he may even be kind and caring.
But I digress. (I really, really digressed).
There is something to the soul, and confession may well be good for it, but not in the way it’s typically manifested through AA. Cognitive-based therapies are completely lacking in addressing this area. So what is to be done? It seems a “middle ground” is needed.Or something entirely different. Or I’m crazy. Or the rest of the world is. Probably a little of both. Mostly the latter.
Thoughts? Feelings? Spiritual awakenings?
P.S. I didn’t want this to be an AA-bashing, but it’s obvious in re-reading it that I still harbor a lot of ill will towards the program. I recognize that this ill will emanates from a part of me that hasn’t become enlightened, or “seen the light” or something along those lines. I’m working on it. Keep coming.
Not sure what meetings you guys are going to but my AA group works for me. I have an active life out side of the program. I still hang with a lot of my friends who drink, but I don’t and that’s what matters to me. Everyone has choices. If AA doesn’t work for you than don’t go. I found out a lot about myself through this program. I don’t find it religious but spiritual because that’s what I was looking for, not religion. A guy spoke at a meeting last year who was an atheist. Thru AA he has been sober a long time . My brother died from this disease and I don’t intend to. I feel good about myself. Sure there are some AA fanatics. I pick the people I choice to be around. What I do notice is that people who go “out” somehow find their way back. Hmmmm.
I just went to an Al Anon meeting and feel worse than before I left. I was feeling great before I went! Little children who live in alcoholic homes are hurting so deeply. How do we protect them? I felt judged and not accepted. It is just not for me at all. And I have done all their “suggestions”. Over the years of meetings that I attended, one person showed me true compassion and didn’t try to make me conform to their ideologies.
Here’s my beef with alanon meetings. I was in relationships with several addicted and alcoholic men many were abusive for the very nature of an alcoholic is to shut off from others and drink or work or do compulsive sex. Now in alanon they don’t consider how abusive these relationships are but begin to change and blame you though many in alanon do need to change their obsessions with wanting the sick person to become well and open to relating. People in alanon often stay longer than they should in very abusive situations and I think the focus is too much on the alanon person to change. I’m tired of it but also it becomes a good place to find serenity, talk and socialize rather than be isolated. It’s sad to love any ism type person for it is not true loving. Better to get away from those who are addicted. I’ve found much good and wisdom in those rooms and lots of sorrow. I’ve learned to live but I don’t want to suffer.
I know that my husbands alcohol issues are NOT my fault, I KNOW I can’t CONTROL it! Although he continuously blames me for his overdrinking….ummm not my fault! He has a choice and when he goes to a store stone ass sober and buys wine and beer because he knows he will get his quick fix from the wine….he has the POWER to not do that!!!! It’s a choice just like anything else in life! I’ve been to AA meetings and I’ve been to Al-Anon meetings and I won’t go back. I don’t try to control him or anything else. He’s a grown man and I know who I am. Do I get mad when drinks and acts like a complete idiot….YEP….who wouldn’t? AA taught him that he didn’t have to go to family gatherings if someone there was going to upset him….well boo boo….get over it and act like a human being. As you can see I have ZERO compassion for a drunk. Turn your life over to Jesus Christ…..the only higher power, quit making up your “higher power” and take control of your life. You do have a choice, life is all about choices and you’re only powerless if you choose to be. You can choose to continue drinking and acting like an idiot, blacking out, urinating on yourself and creating distance with people you love OR you can completely turn your life over to God and take the narrow path.
I’m a very compassionate person, I have lives in this mess for 19 years and I’ve observed every single bit of it. Why do I stay? He’s a binger….not an everyday drinker….he treats me like a queen until he drinks and then he is nothing but pure evil. I seriously don’t know how much longer I will put up with it. I’m 52 now and don’t know how much sanity I have left. I’m not old but I am too old to have to leave my home and go elsewhere for the night because of a drunk demon.
if your life is in danger you should leave him,or if you can’t you are co dependent. l have been there and you need to leave and move on.read about co dependency and seek support from an organisation that can help you
I totally agree. I have been in and out of Alanon since 1984, and I keep going back thinking it will work, but it does tend to keep me miserable and not motivated to move forward. There should not be this sense of powerlessness, and the fact that the “normies” can have a life, and Alanon members cannot and are stuck with each other complaining. I just tried to go back 8 meetings ago for the last time in my life. Onward–I’m going to brave blending in with the “normies”, because the truth is, we all have problems
Dan’s comment on August 16 2017 is the best though out I’ve seen in some time. At least the part where he talks about a need for some sort of change/reform or an outright new approach. In 1980 I thought I had joined a group that was going in that direction. The A. programs had some merit, but had some really troubling points.And counseling left me without a support group. I believed as I do today there is a better way. One should not have to commit to some religious (spiritual or not) group to overcome the effects of abuse. and pure counseling alone does not address my need to learn how to relate to others. I still think there is a way to build a hybrid. The program would have to be non religious/spiritual in nature and not neglecting spiritual needs of the members. It would not be totally focused on the physical health, but physical health is a true need. And it would have to address the distorted thinking that has left me with out meaningful relationship. Maybe it’s just a pipe dream, but the system I have never seems to address my problems with other people.
And don’t try and tell me to jump in the crab bucket, it’s not a healthy place to find relationships. .